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I have 3 jobs in Omaha NE. I am an employer. Every dollar I spend on my workers is a dollar I CANT spend on my children, so I am looking for workers that won't cost a ton of money. Every one of those people looks expensive. I heard multiple times it said "good pay rate", and to me that is code for "expensive"
everyone in that vid, and on this board (me included) needs to wake up to one fact. YOU DON"T DESERVE MIDDLE CLASS, get over yourself.
Collect cans, beg, pick crops START OVER.
AtlasHBS 2 months ago
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@AtlasHBS OK- you've raised my curiosity. If I may ask: what industry do you work in?
Just wondering, cause you seem like quite a hard-ass, which I respect in a man of business, but...
I guess it's interesting that you consider yourself judge of those who "deserve middle class"? AND don't view yourself as worthy?
samcalvin47 2 months ago
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@samcalvin47 Service sector (business to business and residential). over the years I have seen all types come and apply for jobs at my company and I will tell you the ONE SINGLE thing that I screen OUT of my hiring pool. People that think they deserve the job or have any kind of "right" to work. I will not hire a person if they have even a HINT of that kind of attitude.
Want a job? learn to be Humble and thankful (not just act, but actually BE). A tall order for any middle class American.
AtlasHBS 2 months ago
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OK I respect where you're coming from- but do you really think our society rewards humility? I see the humble and thankful get mercilessly tread upon all around, while arrogance and greed are rewarded.
Do you disagree?
Out of interest- are you from the U.S.? You've got a tough take on the U.S. middle class, which makes me wonder where you get this perspective.
samcalvin47 2 months ago
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@samcalvin47 I was born into the bottom of the US working class. I struggled to get where I am now, nobody helped (as a matter of fact most of my struggle was against people who now cry about their 99 weeks). I guess I am upper middle class now ( most of my old peers have been bumped down a few notches).
I wasn't saying society will reward the humble. I was saying be humble just to get a job (crappy job) and survive!
When this is all over it will be the survivors who are left standing
AtlasHBS 2 months ago
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@AtlasHBS In what sense do you see your struggle as being "against people who now cry about their 99 weeks"?
In competition for jobs, as an employer, as a taxpayer, or something else?
samcalvin47 2 months ago
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as a self employed small business owner
as a taxpayer (99ers are tax consumers not tax payers)
as a human in general (I work so they don't have to)
Starting and running a business is difficult in this country because of the taxes we small businesses have to pay (most don't survive their first 5 years). When I started out I had to lift the heavy burden of paying taxes so the 99ers could enjoy their time off. It wasn't right, it wasn't fair and SHOULDN'T have happened at all.
AtlasHBS 2 months ago
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@AtlasHBS I get being angry about the heavy burden small businesspeople are made to bear. I started my own business too- that's why your comments here resonate with me.
But there are many who benefit from the unjust policies of the government- much more so than an unemployed person trying not to get evicted.
Don't you worry that- if you direct your anger at those who have less than you- people will see you as a coward, like the man who kicks his dog because he can't stand up to his boss?
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samcalvin47
Hi Atlas
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Re: Hi Atlas
I hadn't heard back from anybody, and I had made my points, so I thought the conversation had ended.
Self sufficiency is the responsibility of every able bodied working adult, and if not it should at least be a goal. as for beating up on those with less than myself I keep in mind some of the fallowing facts.
I don't make enough money to send my kids to collage, they will need to pay on their own or go into heavy debt to go.
I WOULD have had the money if I didn't have to pay 100 - 200 dollars PER MONTH to these squealing rats in unemployment for the last 15 years of my business (roughly $30,000)
My children suffer to pay for the entitlement of others. I work for my pay, it isn't handed to me by the government at the expense of others.
Now as far as the "greater villains" I am not concerned with their fate. I have a house because a banker gave me HIS money on loan. He did me a favor, he is no villain. I use and pay for my loans as I need them and I am responsible for the outcome. If I fall behind the shame is on ME, not the credit card company or the banks. we are not "entitled" to other peoples money on loan, it is a privilege. IF a man moves his factory over to china or India to save his money I don't fault him, I envy him, I wish I could outsource some of MY costs, alas I am stuck (service sector can't move overseas).
The only people I am beating up are the ones who are DIRECTLY TAKING MY RESOURCES.
Atlas
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samcalvin47
Re: Re: Hi Atlas
Thanks for responding- I know it took me a couple of days between posts :)
As far as "greater villains" go, how do you feel about:
1) Monopolies?
2) Government give-aways to corporations?
3) Fraudulent business practices?
Each of these is directly taking your resources, aren't they? Just because there's no line announcing them on your tax forms doesn't make it any less direct, does it?
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Re: Re: Hi Atlas
please clarify no. 2. The corporation in question, is it using the govt hand out to help or hurt the economy? Example the govt gives several billion dollars to Lockheed, they give thousands of jobs in return, tons of payroll tax revenue right BACK to the fed, plus the planes and missiles to defend this nation and explore space. another would be fannie may. The govt gave them 124 BILLION dollars, they gave themselves bonuses, but they also kept the housing market alive (wounded badly but alive). I disagreed with that bail out (I say let the market fail, we will rebuild it better next time) but they did it any way, now I try to find the good in the situation.
Monopolies are ANTI capitalism incarnate. They seek to crush all business but their own using threat and intimidation and bribes (Intel vs. AMD). They are illegal, they use lawlessness as a business tool. One of the few legitimate uses of Government is to break them up and shut the down, sadly the govt fails at this (in a country FULL of monopolies name me ONE that Bush or Obama has broken up) That said the remedy is to break them up when they appear, but leave the system open for new start ups to get going (regulate AFTER the crime, not before).
Fraudulent business practices is a pretty big topic, I would need some specifics. The guy that cleans my carpet uses fraud sometimes (suckers me in with a 99 dollar coupon then hits me with a 400 dollar bill after the work is done!) and so does Monsanto ("GMO food - Good for the enviornment, ok for you).
Your last statement hints a the idea that these guys take from me indirectly. I would say with the exeption of taxes (which you know that I love) they don't TAKE from me. I might GIVE them money and resources, but they can't TAKE. Buyer be ware. If we don't like the goods and services they provide, don't buy them. We have choices like shop elsewhere, find an alternative product, make it ourselves, or do without.
The real question is can we do anything about these greater villains. Reagan helped them, so did Bush senior, Clinton handed them all of North America on a silver platter (NAFTA and GAT), Bush Jr. fully activated the secret police and war machine, and Obama is bought and paid for by Wall Street and has give EVERY top White House job to a wall-street banker or Goldman Sacks operative. I honestly think our political system has evil in its heart, it can't be stopped and can barely be slowed down.
Politics is not the answer.
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samcalvin47
Re: Hi Atlas
I would argue that each of these acts take money from your pocket just as directly as the unemployed- and you get far less return.
For instance, monopoly practices on things we need- such as food, housing, or gasoline, cost us a great deal of money in terms of inflated prices. It's not voluntary if you have no real alternative!
To clarify #2: I don't regard all government purchases as "give-aways." As you say, buy a plane from Lockheed and the government gets a plane. But there is a pretty clear line between that and pernicious patterns of "no-bid" contracts, bail-outs, and flat-out cash gifts to corporations.
You're correct that the topic of fraud is a big one. Again, however, I say start from the top. It's clear that major fraud was accomplished by hedge funds in re-packaging sub-prime mortgages, garnering triple-A ratings for them, advising their clients across the globe to buy them, and then profiting from secret bets placed against them.
I think you really cut right to the heart of the issue when you say: "The real question is can we do anything about these greater villains." This tells me (along with your other answers to these questions) that you are a person with actual integrity.
I agree whole-heartedly: this is the real question.
But, I ask: If politics is not the answer, what is?
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Re: Re: Hi Atlas
The short answer is "personal responsibility".
Most of the problems we as a nation face are leftover problems from last generations "solutions". If we fix today's problems our solutions will most likely set the stage for the next set of "problems". Most of them are out of the individuals control. But we as Americans want action, so we talk them problems to death all the while ignoring our personal issues.
When a guy has a decent job making $30,000 a year it is his responsibility to set money aside for disasters, personal money problems, car repairs all of that. 10 years the guy has this good job then all of a sudden he is laid off, now a typical American has SPENT all of his money each and every payday, being irresponsible buying ipads, and big screen tv's and furniture. in no time the guys is flat broke and crying about being poor and collecting unemployment. What about the last TEN YEARS? If he had done his job he would be in fine shape.
Credit cards = irresponsible
car loans = irresponsible
mortgage refinance = irresponsible
vacations in the summer but no money in the bank = irresponsible
If a person was more responsible in his personal finances and saved up money to buy a car he can actually afford, greedy car loan companies COULDN'T affect him.
If he payed for his home electronics with cash instead of credit cards greedy corporate thugs couldn't raise his rates suddenly.
If he had 1 mortgage fixed for 30 years, paying extra when he can and resisted the impulse to cash out his equity he would have paid the house off by the time his kids are going into college, thus avoiding the dreaded rate hikes of an Adjustable Rate Mortgage.
Discipline, Self Control and Personal Responsibility are the key that EACH and EVERY one of us can TAKE for ourselves.
Nearly every one of the "too big to solve" problems can be FIXED, NEUTRALIZED, or BYPASSED on a personal one to one level if the individual practices personal responsibility.
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samcalvin47
Re: Hi Atlas
So you think that the "big villains" can be vanquished simply by keeping to yourself?
I think that's horribly naive, and over the long-term a sure road to slavery (or at least serfdom).
Look at it this way: let's say someone established control over a basic necessity of life, for instance water. Everyone would have to pay whatever they demanded for water, right- totally on their terms. No amount of "personal responsibility" would alter the fact that they were given an undue amount of control within society.
This situation does exist- to a meaningful extent- around a modern necessity of life: a job. There is no freely available farmland that we can retreat to for the kind of "keep to myself" subsistence lifestyle you advocate. Collecting cans? How many can that support. Same for begging. Starting even a small business takes capital, something most long-term unemployed have no access to.
Face it: working for someone else is- for the great majority- an absolute necessity. So is the banking/credit system. These institutions can work for the collective good, too, but only if we have the courage to face the "big villains."
What do you think?
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Re: Re: Hi Atlas
First off you have put a phrase in my mouth. "keep to yourself" I have not said that. Personal responsibility is what I said. The two are very different.
Keep to yourself implies an attitude of not paying attention, and not engaging the culture we live in. It implies the idea of ignoring problems.
Being responsible for yourself is the opposite. Watch out for predators and stay out of their way (like refusing to refinance even when you would like too). Identifying pitfalls like easy credit, or wanting more than you can afford to buy (with cash of course).
You said "..sure road to slavery" The Bible is very clear that to be in debt IS to be in slavery. Say what you want about the book, and the authors, but I don't want to be in debt bondage to ANYBODY.
We can go back and forth on different issues all day long, I think we need to focus on what we can agree on. Do you think that WE THE PEOPLE are responsible for the foolish deceptions we make, or should we be able to make OTHER people responsible for our mistakes.
If I invest 50,000 dollars in a new business and it fails should I get a Govt handout? My money back? Bailout?
If I invest my employment in a failing business (horse buggy whip maker) should I get a handout? a guaranteed new job? 99 weeks of unemployment benefits?
When do we have to own up to our mistakes? Or should other people have to carry us along when we screw up?
We need the courage to fail. so we can learn and try again.
Nov 02, 2010
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samcalvin47
Re: Re: Re: Hi Atlas
Again you have not answered the question about cowardice and greater villains. If there are monopolies in control on many parts of the economy- including things which are essential to all people- how does someone avoid being in debt to them without confronting them?
Nov 07, 2010
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samcalvin47
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hi Atlas
Three ways
1. if you have no debt you have more money. It is better to confront a villian when you have money and means than it is to stand before them broke. (I think we would be able to agree to that point)
2.When you have your own money YOU get to decide what you buy and what you don't. When you live off of debt somebody else decides what you can and can't have. (we call them underwriters, they look at your credit and decide of you can have the car, house, or business equipment you are asking for.)
3.Altered thinking. When you are spending somebody else's money (credit) it warps your thinking and values about what is really important. You start asking questions like "can I afford this" but you already KNOW you can't, that is why you are asking for a loan. Instead of asking "do I need this" you ask questions like "do I WANT this". If you spend your own money things are clearer. When you realize you are blowing YOUR hard earned money on the newest crappy gadget instead of the banks money it clarifies your attitude.
Now I answered your question but I think the question itself is missing the point. We need food, water, shelter, and security. The rest of life are WANTS not needs. There is no food monopoly, or a water monopoly. You and I have hundred of options for shelter. The final need is security, and I am unaware of any corporation providing an air force or navy to fight off the bad guys.
Your internet service is not needed, it is wanted (VERY wanted). An Ipod is not needed, nor is a fancy car (walk, bike, used car, bus, taxi, get a ride from a friend are all options). Food is needed, Mcdonald's is NOT.
Living in America is possible on minimum wage. Living the "American Dream" of a fancy house, and a new car, wearing the latest fashions, and having the latest gadgets. THAT is only possible with Debt or a larger income. Show me a need that a common man must get a loan to have.
Want to fight the Beast, stop asking him for a loan.
Nov 08, 2010
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Re: Hi Atlas
What kind of reality testing do you apply to this thinking? You are obviously noy averse to going against the crowd, but how are you sure you're not just chasing a foolish dream?
As far as I'm concerned, the tactics you describe wer shown to be futile in the U.S. by the time of the Great Depression. Those who believed in such a path were forced to capitulate to the banks, and were swept into the cities as jobless destitutes. Whether or not these banks represent monopolies in your view (they doin mine), it can't be denied that they proved themselves both indespensible, powerful, and villainous.
In this light, I see your recommendations as being like a man who, on a sunny day, preaches the corrupting influences of umbrellas!
Nov 12, 2010
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Re: Re: Hi Atlas
If you hate the banks why would you even consider borrowing their money? Are you unable to pay for cars without them? forget the back and forth for a moment, I would like a strait answer on this point. I think using a bank to buy a car is wasteful and irresponsible, save and buy one you can afford. Do you really think that a car is unattainable without a bankers loan?
Nov 12, 2010
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Re: Re: Re: Hi Atlas
I'm not sure I hate banks- I'm just sure I hate the way they're run.
I principle you're right- but only in principle. The circumstances we live in in the U.S. don't really allow. Wouldn't you take out a bank loan if it would let you hang on to your business? If not- then you become just another wage slave. If you do- then you have to answer to higher powers.
My point is this- at some point we all have to answer to the "higher powers" that exist in our society. If the banks don't get you, then the government will! (You asked what monopolies there in effect today- how about the monopoly the government has over extracting taxes!)
If we don't want other people to control us, don't we have to work to disarm or reform these higher powers? Is simply surviving without taking a penny from them a viable or worthwhile goal?
Nov 14, 2010
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Hi Atlas
You didn't answer my last question about cars and car loans.
Please answer on that, then I will talk about your last set of points
Nov 14, 2010
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hi Atlas
Do I think a car is unattainable without a loan?
For the most part, no.
(And for those people who truly cannot afford a car without a loan, they are unlikely to be eligible for a loan from a bank.)
Nov 15, 2010
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hi Atlas
I am glad we agree that cars can be had without financing. Cars are the second most expensive item that we Americans use credit for. A ton of money is wasted every year on interest payments for vehicles. When people use money with personal responsibility and good stewardship as a component to their life they are better off. When people get greedy and envious of others cars and go sign up for a loan at the dealership their troubles in life are multiplied and they use up their own personal safety net on instant gratification.
I think that you and I could agree that like cars, credit card purchases (trips to best buy and such) are similarly unnecessary and wasteful of money.
Credit is not needed by the vast majority of Americans.
Credit is WANTED by the vast majority of Americans.
I will address your other message now.
P.S. I know I left out houses, which we will probably not have much common ground on that item so I figured we would save that topic for next time.
Sent to: samcalvin47
Nov 17, 2010
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Hi Atlas
I am going to respond to your message point by point.
"I'm not sure I hate banks- I'm just sure I hate the way they're run."
I dislike banks and don't like how they are run, but I just avoid them so it's really not my problem.
"I principle you're right- but only in principle. The circumstances we live in in the U.S. don't really allow. "
We dealt with this in our last set of emails. Your mistaken, you can have a car, you can have consumer goods, and you can live without credit and the banks. (houses are a bit different but that will be our next topic) The system does allow for good judgment and not having banks run your life.
"Wouldn't you take out a bank loan if it would let you hang on to your business?"
This is a straw man argument, if you run your business right you don't need the loan. If you can't survive without the loan then you should be out of business because you have bad judgment.
"If not- then you become just another wage slave. If you do- then you have to answer to higher powers."
this is a false dichotomy fallacy, it implies that there are only two possibilities when in fact there are many (actually a straw-man,false dichotomy double fallacy to be exact)
"My point is this- at some point we all have to answer to the "higher powers" that exist in our society. If the banks don't get you, then the government will! (You asked what monopolies there in effect today- how about the monopoly the government has over extracting taxes!)"
I have dealt with the "banks running your life" issue They are powerless if you keep them out of your life, and you CAN do that. Govt taxing reform is necessary (Govt spending reform must come first though)
"If we don't want other people to control us, don't we have to work to disarm or reform these higher powers?"
Keep the banks and their loans out of your life and they are disarmed. Reform becomes irrelevant and unnecessary.
"Is simply surviving without taking a penny from them a viable or worthwhile goal?"
Another false dichotomy fallacy. Living without credit is easier and cheaper than living with it, it isn't "simply surviving". Not taking their rotten loans IS viable and it IS VERY worthwhile. Living on credit is the most expensive way to live.
In the end we all have choices to make, when we make good choices we are rewarded, and when we make poor choices we suffer. Banks, monopolies, and even governments are all bad but clearly WE are our own worst enemy. Taking responsibility for ourselves MUST be the first step if winning against these forces, for it is THERE that the battle will be won or lost.
Sent to: samcalvin47
Nov 17, 2010
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Re: Hi Atlas
Lot of straw men to beat down ;)
What our country learned during the Depression is that the market subjects us to absolute but potentially irrational forces. Farmers- who had been "running their businesses well"- found that they were unable to subsist when prices for farm products plunged. For individual farmers, the answer was to produce more- but this further depressed prices.
Eventually, millions were forced to take loans to survive, and when that failed, they lost their farms. They became jobless migrants, who flooded the cities- exacerbating the unemployment crisis there.
Those were exceptional times. There have been many years since then when all the things you say were basically true- if you ran your business well, you could prosper.
But I fear that we are heading into "irrational" times again- and that no amount of personal responsibility will protect us.
Sent to: atlashbs
Nov 24, 2010
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